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【訪問法學家】專訪瑪麗亞·倫德伯格教授:不遠萬里,未來可期

發表于: 2019-12-04 21:37:57 點擊:

2019年11月7日,挪威奧斯陸大學法學院瑪麗亞·倫德伯格教授做客云南大學法學院,并接受我院新媒體運營中心“訪問法學家”欄目的采訪?,旣悂喗淌趤碜员睔W,堅韌不乏溫柔,幽默富有理性。在短短半個小時里,教授答疑解惑,與采訪的同學們親密交談。采訪同學不僅初步了解了可持續發展與少數人權利的理論與現狀,也感受到這位法學院老朋友的獨特的人格魅力。以下是采訪內容:

瑪麗亞·倫德伯格教授,挪威奧斯陸大學法學院教授、云南大學與中央民族大學客座教授。

問題一:

瑪麗亞教授,很高興見到您。首先,感謝您接受新媒體的采訪,感謝您杰出的學術成就以及為發展少數人權利所做出的貢獻。時間飛逝,轉眼您在中國的研究已有二十多年的經驗,特別是和云南大學的合作剛滿二十年,很有紀念意義。您能否從學術交流、人才培養或者國際友誼等方面,簡單回顧這二十年間與云南大學的合作。比如,您對云南大學印象最深的是什么?

Nice to meet you, Professor Maria. First of all, thank you for accepting our interview. Thank you for your outstanding academic achievements and contributions to minority rights. Time passes quickly, and you have more than 20 years of experience in research in China. In particular, the cooperation with Yunnan University has just been 20 years and it is very memorable. Can you briefly conclude the cooperation with Yunnan University in the aspects of academic exchange, talent cultivation or international friendship? For example, what is your deepest impression on Yunnan University?

瑪麗亞教授:

對于云南大學,我印象最深刻的是它對不同觀點所秉持著的開放態度。我認為,這是云南大學為何在學術發展和學生交流方面如此優秀的原因,這也與云南省有多元民族的省情密不可分。

作為一名外籍教師,我認為云南大學法學院的老師與學生都非常樂于溝通與交流。盡管他們有著不同的觀點,并且要維持這種不同需要很大努力,但是大家會自信而積極地堅定那些不同的聲音。除此之外,云南大學的民族法起步較早,發展較為全面,并且在此領域有很多杰出的學者,這也是我來到云南大學的一個原因。因為我知道,與云大法學院的其他部門法相比,民族法的學術發展非常出色,這對于一項學科的學術研究與國際交流有著不可替代的意義。這二十年的溝通與交流也證實了我的選擇是正確的。

Profession Maria:

The deepest impression I think is the openness of all the students and teachers to receive. People here are very polite to foreign people. It is not only about being treated well in the academic corporation, also has a constructive exchange. For example, Yunnan university is so open to different points of view, and I think this is why YNU so good at opening for academic and student exchange.Besides, Yunnan province is so diverse province. 

For a foreign teacher to come here, all the teachers and student are easier to talk with, though they have different opinion and they feel proud about being different you know. Even if it is not very easy to be different all the time. In addition, the ethnic law of Yunnan University started earlier and developed more comprehensively, and there are many outstanding scholars in this field, which is also a reason why I came to Yunnan University. Because I know that the academic development of national law is outstanding compared with other departmental laws in this field, which is of irreplaceable significance for academic research and exchange. These 20 years of communication and exchange have also proved my choice is right.

新媒體同學與瑪麗亞教授交談

問題二:

您剛剛提到了云南大學教師和學生身上的包容性是您印象最為深刻的,我想我們應該保持這樣的優點。在您和云南大學合作的二十年里,云南和云南大學也發生了極大變化。就在今年,云南還設立了三個自由貿易區,促進民族地區經濟發展和對外開放。您認為云南在少數民族保護方面有哪些進步,還有哪些地方可以借鑒挪威和歐洲地區的民族保護制度?

You just mentioned that the inclusiveness of teachers and students in Yunnan University is the most impressive thing for you. I think we should keep such advantages. In the 20 years of your cooperation with Yunnan University, Yunnan and Yunnan University have also undergone great changes. Just in this year, Yunnan has also established three free trade zones to promote economic to open to the outside world. What do you think are the progresses of Yunnan in the protection of ethnic minorities, because openness may cause some harm, and what other places can we learn from the national protection system in Norway and Europe?

瑪麗亞教授:

在中國,你應該多研讀中國的法律和憲法,特別是憲法第四條所指的民族平等意味著什么,為什么少數民族有權發展自己的語言和文化?世界的可持續發展需要我們去平衡醫學、經濟、環境問題和社會權利等各個研究領域。

再者,我們應當重視并找出實現可持續發展的途徑,然后細致考慮到少數民族的權利。

一方面,我們需要有洞察整個環境的意識,意識到少數民族的處境,同時通過調研少數民族的方式去具體考量到他們實現權利的方式。因此,我認為,有效參與是一種必要方式。我們必須讓少數民族自己去定義,定義民族的未來發展目標,明確民族的內心追求與愿景,因為我們希望每個人、每個民族能加入決策的環節。

在這里,我們試圖討論的不僅僅是經濟發展或少數民族的話題,也討論如何讓少數民族參與并擁有決定的權力。例如,每個經濟特區都有自己特殊的法律框架,他們有一定權力以自己的方式實現經濟發展。當然,為了完善國家的保護體系,我們需要一系列的協商,我們應當以關切的態度去實現共享發展。我們需要明白少數民族群體真正關心的話題,而不是我們自認為他們想要的,更不是以一種傲慢態度去理想當然。

另一方面,我們需要保留少數民族的傳統文化,因為傳統文化是一個民族的特色,是讓一個民族獨立于世界文化之林的標志。明年10月,這里將會舉辦一場關于多樣性公約的大型會議,這對于我們研究不同國家的民族或土著人民的文化與知識很重要,也能幫助我們尋找可持續發展的新途徑。有時候,向中國學習很有必要,中國同樣需要向世界學習,此種兼容并包的共識能夠讓我們彼此成就。

Professor Maria:

In China, you should read Chinese Constitution and laws, particularly article 4 of the Constitution. What does equality among nationalities? Why do the minority nationalities have the right to actually develop their language or their culture? The world should have to sustain the development and the area where we need to balance medical research, economic, we need to have an environmental concern and social where the rights come in,except that, to notice the way how to find out what is sustainable development taking into account from their rights.

On the one hand, we need to have a sense of insight into the whole environment, to be aware of the situation of ethnic minorities, and at the same time, we need to consider the realization of their rights by asking about ethnic minorities. So, I think effective participation is one of them. You have to let the minorities themselves define what their future development goals are and what they want to achieve in their hearts. Because we want everyone and every ethnic minority to join in the decision-making process.

Because we want everybody amd minorities to be there. Not only economic development or minorities, but you need to have a discussion to let them agree on what to do and involved with them in what to do. For example, a special economic zone which has a very particular legal framework, people could develop economic in their own way. To make national protection system better, we need to negotiate, and we need to understand what ethnic minorities really care about is not what we think they want.Do not take it for granted with an arrogant attitude. You should include an attitude of concern to achieve sharing development.

On the other hand, we need to preserve the traditional culture of ethnic minorities, which is their characteristic that make them unique in the world culture. In October next year, there will be a major conference on the Convention on diversity, and the culture and knowledge of peoples or indigenous peoples in different countries will be very important in finding new ways of sustainable development. Sometimes, it's good to learn from China, but it's also good for China to learn from the world. Having such a consensus and inclusiveness can make us achieve each other.

問題三:

剛才您提到,要向不同的人學習觀點。我認為在此過程中,云南大學法學院的學生有參與云南法治建設的責任,我們也要對自己將做的工作充滿信心。然而,有時學生會因為沒有頭緒而消極迷茫,您認為學生們應當調整這一困境呢?

Professor just mentioned that it is very important to learn from the different people, and I think it might be our duty for our law school students to participate in this. To work in Yunnan, legal construction is very necessary that we have to be confident about what we are going to do and we have to stay positive. However, students maybe a little passive when they have no idea to fulfill one’s ambition.Your honor,professor,what we should do to solve such predicament?

瑪麗亞教授:

在中國,年輕人要聽取前輩的意見似乎是一種天經地義的傳統。既然如此,年輕人也有必要保持足夠的謙卑和耐心。學生應當擁有更多的耐心,更加恭敬地尋求問題的答案,然后才能了解到個人力所能及之處。你們可以就此接受那些來自閱歷豐富者的建議,就比如我們的大學老師們。

即使這樣,我們有時還是會犯各種錯誤。坦白講,沒有人希望自己的孩子、朋友做錯事,但有些是難以避免的,正如我們總有可能愛上錯誤的人。在這時,對于你們這個年紀的孩子來說,建設性的批評是很有利的。過去的錯誤能夠讓我們找出問題的根源,即使你也許暫時無法給出解決的途徑,但盡管嘗試吧,正如你在研二上學期還可以不斷推翻你的碩士論文選題。你們應該積極地去探尋什么是我們需要解決的問題,作為法律人,不只要關注政治問題,也應當結合自己的專業,尋求合理有效的途徑去解決困境。

Professor Maria: 

In china. that tradition is a young people need to listen to the old people all the time, so perhaps you should be modest and patient. Perhaps we should be a little bit more patient and ask for something respectfully, let's see what we can do. We take their advice of those having a lot of experience, just like our professors.

However, sometimes it's also good to make your own mistakes. Quite frankly, nobody wants their child or friend to make a mistake,like sometimes we fall in love with the wrong guy. At that time, constructive criticism is very good and sometimes for your age. Through our past mistake, we finally get what is the problem, Even if you may not be able to provide a solution for the time being, try it, just as you can constantly overturn the topic of your master's thesis. You should actively explore what is the problem we need to solve. You are a legal person. You can not only solve political problems, but also find some reasonable and effective ways to achieve it.

問題四:

正如您所說的,我們得考慮問題是怎么產生的。那么,我想問您一個關于學習的問題。上個學期我有幸參加了國際課程,受益匪淺。我發現,歐洲大學的法律教育和中國存在很大不同,這樣的不同也體現于學習方法和學術理念等。您如何看待這種現象?您覺得云大學子在法律研習上還有哪些應當提升的地方?

In this way, we have to consider how the problem arises. I want to ask you a question about learning. Last semester, I had the honor to participate in international courses and benefited a lot. I found that the legal education in European universities is very different from that in China, and such differences also exist in the way of learning and academic concepts. Some students who came back from Oslo became more confident. So, what do you think of this phenomenon? What do you think should be improved in the study of law by students of Yunnan University?

瑪麗亞教授:

我和陳云東教授曾經談過這個問題,我們都認為法學生在學習專業知識之外,還有必要補充政治學、歷史學等知識。

首先,只有你充分學習到歷史背景和當今社會,你才能理解各種國家法律、政策的運行機制。為什么說在過去的歷史中,很少有法律關注少數民族的權利。因為這受到歷史環境的影響,封建社會很少有人會注意到這些。在歐洲第二次世界大戰之前,法律發展程度較低,戰爭中的各種迫害讓少數民族離開了他們生活幾百年的土地。為何會出現這樣的情況?從歷史維度上看,正是由于當時的法律和政治的發展程度較低,當時的政府或統治者很難維護少數人的權利。爾后,時代的發展改善了這些問題。

其次,我們在分析一個案件時,應當充分意識到案情是否關涉少數民族問題。我們應當比較不同的案件,立足于少數民族的具體情況,給出符合實際的答案。我們也應當有批判思維,有同理心。因為我們知道,當我們在批判時,不能不分青紅皂白地批評整個國家或某個群體,我們往往只是針對具體問題來分析。

正如你提到的,很多交流生在回國后更加自信,在學習上更加得心應手。對于這個現象,我認為學生的自信來自于個人。在奧斯陸大學,中國的孩子們在課業考試中都能取得很好的成績,比本國的學生要好很多,這令我非常吃驚。另一方面,我認為是因為教學方式的不同,國外給予學生更多主動表達的機會。國外的老師會給出一些法律案例來傾聽同學的意見,并鼓勵學生活躍地思考以及給出不同的答案。我想,這樣的教學模式讓學生能更充分地認識自己。學生們即使不說,也會對自己有更多的期待。

Professor Maria:

I have talked to professor Chen YunDong,we both think it's very significant that you also study political science at the same time except law knowledge.

First of all, you can understand the implementation of various national laws and policies only if you fully learn the historical background and the current society. Why is it that  few laws in the past paid attention to the rights of ethnic minorities? Because this was the product of the environment at that time, few people in feudal society would notice this. Before the Second World War in Europe, the development of law was relatively low. Because of all kinds of persecution in the war, some ethnic minorities left the land where they lived for hundreds of years. No minority authorities why? And historically it is because at that, there were certain legal developments and political developments that made it very difficult to have minority rights at that time. Later on, it came, but after certain era development.

Secondly, when we look at the quality of a case, we should fully realize that this is for ethnic minorities. We should compare different cases, based on the situation of ethnic minorities, and then give practical answers. We should have critical thinking, but also empathy. Because we know that if we are not indiscriminately criticizing the whole country when we are criticizing, we tend to focus on specific issues.

When it comes to why students are more confident, I think students' confidence comes from individuals. At the University of Oslo, I am surprised that Chinese children can get very good grades in the course examination, which is much better than the students in our country. On the other hand, I think it's the difference of teaching methods. We give students more opportunities to express themselves. The teacher will give some legal cases to listen to students' opinions and encourage students to have active ideal and to give different answers. I think such a model enables students to have confidence for their own abilities.

問題五:

根據教授的解答,我明白我們很多時候缺乏問題意識,我們可能知道問題是什么,但不知道問題是如何產生的,也就無法有效地解決問題,這是我們應當在之后的學習中注意的。最后,問您關于學生交流項目的問題。據學生了解,奧斯陸大學與云南大學法學院的交流項目將暫告一段落,您對兩大高校的后續交流有何期待或展望?

According to the professor's answer, I understand that we often lack the awareness of problems. We might know what it is, but we lack the ways and methods to solve problems, which we should pay attention to in the later study. Let us make a conclusion and ask you the last question. We have some news that the exchange project between us to university at Yunnan university come to an end for a for one time. What is your expectation or prospects for the follow up exchanges between two schools and deepening our friendship communication?

瑪麗亞教授:

我多么希望我們可以繼續保持交流項目,但聚散終有時,再見會有期。云南大學和奧斯陸大學交流的這些年,我不僅豐盈了學術知識,更與一些優秀的教師結下了深刻的友誼,比如王鑫,沈壽文,白綸老師等。然而,由于交流項目關乎于教學資源分配,也關乎我們得到的資金支持,所以項目不得不暫告一段落。

在過去的項目中,奧斯陸大學為交流學生設立了獎學金。這樣的話,不僅家庭條件優渥的學生可以去交流,相對貧困的學生也可以去。如今,中國已是世界第二大經濟體,大多數學生的生活水平也有所提升。所以,現實的是,交流發展資金會更多地流向比中國學生還需要資金的人和國家。如果云南大學的學生愿意自己出資交流,我們可以安排一些學習空間來支持,這也是后話。

我真誠的希望各位同學到外面的世界看看,不管是挪威還是別的國家。開闊視野對于法律學習者是很重要的,我們要將自身的發展置于世界中,即使出去交流的時間很短,也應該嘗試。

我很感激這些年來與云南大學的交流。時光飛逝,我也見證了新舊校區的變遷,很多事情變了,但人與人之間的友誼和信賴是不變的。我希望奧斯陸大學和云南大學繼續保持密切的學術交流,也衷心希望云南大學能夠發展得更好。

Professor Maria:

I hope that we can continued the exchange, but sometimes everything that is fun has to have an end. In the years of communication between Yunnan University and Oslo University, I have not only enriched my academic knowledge, but also forged profound friendship with some excellent teachers, such as Wang Xin, Shen Shouwen, Bai Lun, etc. However, because these exchange projects are related to the allocation of teaching resources and the financial support we have received, we have to temporarily put an end to the project.

We have to see how we can do this; in past projects, the University of Oslo has set up scholarships for students, so that not only students with good family conditions can communicate, but also poor students can go. Today, China is the second largest economy in the world, and most students have become rich, so development funds will flow to people and countries who need more funds than Chinese students. If we can make students in Yunnan pay for themselves, then we may be able to arrange some learning space to support exchange learning, which is the next step.

I sincerely hope you can go out and have a look, whether it's Norway or other countries. It's very important for law learners to broaden their horizons. We should put our own development into the world. Even if the time for communication is very short, you should do it.

I am very grateful for the exchange with Yunnan University over the years. Time flies. I have witnessed the changes of the old and new campuses. Many things have changed, but the friendship and trust between people remain unchanged. I hope that Oslo University and Yunnan University will continue to maintain close academic exchanges and sincerely hope that Yunnan University can develop better.

合影留念

結語

今天的采訪暫告段落,非常感謝瑪麗亞教授不遠萬里來到云南大學,也誠摯感謝瑪麗亞教授接受我們的采訪。您的回答給予我們很多思考,我們也希望通過努力能為可持續發展和少數民族權利做一些貢獻。挪威是一個美麗的國家,奧斯陸大學更是一所杰出的大學。祝愿兩校友誼長存,云南大學法學院永遠歡迎您的到來。

Professor Maria, thank you again for being so kind and accepting our interview. Your answer has given us a lot of thinking. We also hope to make some contributions to sustainable development and minority rights through our efforts. Norway is a beautiful country, and Oslo University is an outstanding university. May the friendship between the two universities last forever. Welcome to Yunnan University law school, always!

瑪麗亞教授寄語

采訪 :王清荷 

張亦文 

王一鳴 

問題整理 : 孫含笑

 劉澤慧

攝影 :張德勇

 張淑蘭



















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